894 out of 899 (Updated-x2)

Crossposted at [REDACTED]

894 out of 899

Much has been talked about, with respect to John McCain's time at the Naval Academy.  As someone who also went there, I want to express my deep admiration for John McCain's accomplishment of graduating 6th from the bottom.

In 1988, I graduated from the United States Naval Academy, exactly 30 years after John McCain.  In my graduating class of around 1100, I graduated dead in the middle, in the low 500s.  By all measures, I was an average Midshipman.

How was my class rank calculated, and why did class rank matter?

Class rank is a combination of several factors:

1. Academic Performance
2. Professional Performance
3. Leadership Performance

There may be several more factors, and they may have changed since I graduated 20 years ago, but those should still be the major areas that are used to calculate class rank.

Why does class rank matter?  

Because it determines what you get to pick for a job when you graduate.

What's the most sought after job?

Naval Aviator.

1.  Academic Performance:  This is pretty much self explanatory.  We all had regular academic majors, (mine was in the engineering area), and this is just like any other school.  If memory serves, academic performance should make up about 60% to 70% of the class rank.  They may have changed the weighting since my time, but this was about the range when I was there.

2.  Professional Performance:  I use this term to refer to the professional military science classes that we all took as part of the core academic curricula.  These include classes like Military Law, Celestial Navigation, etc.

3.  Leadership Performance:  This is based on evaluations from your Company Commander, (a 1st class, or senior Midshipman), and your company officer, (Commissioned Officer, usually between the rank of LT and LCDR).  This includes a few things, but it usually involves: 1) What is the midshipman's bearing and behavior as a future military officer, and 2) How is this Midshipman doing as a leader, (are they training the underclassmen well, are they an effective leader of men and women, etc).

Now, I had a friend who was a great Midshipman, but a little shy in the academic performance area.  Even though his GPA was about 0.5 lower than mine, he had a higher class rank due to his superior military achievement.

So, I was the contra case:  I had a higher academic GPA than he did, but a lower class rank overall.  This helps smooth things out a bit, since if you're deficient in one area, you can sort of make up for it in another.

So, how did John get almost to the bottom of the class?

Well, he pretty much fucked up all three areas.  

Remember, this wasn't just an impact to the individual midshipman, since screwing up the Leadership Performance part also meant that you weren't doing your job in training and guiding the underclassmen. You were short changing them also.

It also meant that you broke the rules a lot, (we all did, to some degree or another).  

There's a saying that prisons are only filled with the dumb criminals...the smart ones know how to not get caught.  I'll let you draw your own conclusions about McCain's evasive abilities.

(Ed note: When I was there, there was fierce competition to be the anchorman, since tradition states that the anchorman of the class gets a dollar from every Midshipman that graduated ahead of him or her. This, by the way, drove the administration of the Academy nuts.  It's also like playing Russian roulette, since in order to graduate that low, you've probably also spent the last couple of years almost getting thrown out.)

In order to sink as low as John did and still graduate, he had to take some serious risks...very serious.  In addition, to have spent as much time on restriction as John did, he also needed to get caught...a lot.

So, from my perspective as a fellow alumni, John took many serious risks, and didn't think the consequences through well enough, or plan well enough to avoid getting caught.

Now, I also got caught jumping the wall once and I paid for it.  I learned my lesson, and was never caught again.  I starting thinking things through a little better, if I ever got the urge to break some rules.

It is amazing, in some ways, that we still see these character traits in John, 50 years later.  

Update [2008-9-7 14:26:50 by AntiStipes]:: Wow. Top of the old rec list.

Thanks guys!

In the interests of full disclosure, I worked on John's 2000 primary campaign, and voted for him as Senator in 2004.

Also, the idea for this diary came about when I stumbled upon my old academic transcript. I thought that I would look for John's old transcript on-line, just to compare our grades. It turns out that he has NOT released all of his military records.

Not even close.

This is not good.

At any rate, since none of us will ever see his grades, or evaluations, I wanted to add a little perspective of what John's class rank actually meant.

Thanks again guys!

Update [2008-9-7 15:43:8 by AntiStipes]:

Here a link to an article by one of John's fellow POWs. He was actually with him.

http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,164859_1,00.html.dk

Display:


Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 11)

Tips for NOT getting caught?


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 01:48:20 AM EST

Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 3)

I've always been curious, what positions did Mister 893 and 895 get, once they graduated? The answer to that question will give us a pretty clear indication of how much having an Admiral as a daddy helped McCain with getting the most coveted job in the Navy.


by EvilAsh on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 01:55:43 AM EST

Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 1)

It would depend, but my guess would be Surface, (ship driver), and a none-to-good position either:  Minesweeper, or some kind of "Tender" vessel, (resupply and repair ship).


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 02:00:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 2)

Probably. Or if he was dead-set on being a pilot, at best a C-2 (Or the Vietnam equivalent) ferrying people on and off the carriers on COD flights.
I know McCain crashed a few aircraft before even getting on the carrier, so that probably should've disqualified him for flight status. I served with a naval aviator (VFA-86) who was bumped from flight status for bouncing his F/A-18 one too many times during routine landings at Fallon NAS and jacking up the landing gear.
Maybe they were more lenient at the time, but I kinda thought losing an aircraft during training was a damn sure way of getting your wings clipped.
by EvilAsh on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 03:20:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 1)

Oh, yeah.  In this day and age, loosing a bird will end a career.  And jacking one up will get your flight status pulled.

I can't really comment on which airframes would have been most desirable at that time, since I don't know.  My guess is that the A-4s would have been sought after.

BTW, it takes a lot to damage the undercarriage of a Hornet.


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 10:41:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (none / 0)

I have read that both McCain's admiral ancestors finished in the bottom quarter, and both made four star admiral.  Is that the case?  Have other poorly performing academy students ever risen that high?  Grant was 21st out of 39.  Patton had to redo his plebe year after he screwed up mathematics, but was thereafter a good student. Carter finished 59th out of his Academy class of 820 -- but he was not a very good President. There must be some military historian out there who knows if there is a student performance/accomplishments correlation.


by strongerthandirt on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 05:33:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (none / 0)

This diary does not address the statistical probability that someone who graduates low in the class, can go on to achieve great things.

I would never make that case.

I do, however, understand this experience better than any other user on MyDD, unless there are other fellow alumni that care to speak up.

I know quite a bit about John McCain, and have met him personally three times.  I have a very good basis for my opinions...as they directly relate to his temperament, and performance.


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 05:44:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 1)

Don't get me wrong, McCain was definitely a "Legacy" appointment.

He still needed to get either a Congressional appointment, a VP appointment, or a CMOH appointment...but it would have been all lined up for him by his Dad, and/or Grandpa.  

He didn't have to compete for it, like myself and most others did.


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 02:04:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (none / 0)

Yes, the principal's daughter got special treatment, too. My daddy wasn't an unadmirable admiral, either. He worked for a living. Mildred Pierce wasn't my mom's great aunt, either.
Look into most good jobs, and you'll find nepotism of vast and sickening proportion. We didn't win the Revolutionary War; the old money of the old world got away with that one, and still buys what it wants (inre: spoilt brats get the best jobs, even if it means crashing a bzillion dollar jet on a reckless mission...).

Now; how do you unsubscribe from this site? The contact page does not work, and, I can't find the link to get my name off of here.

No worries; I just don't feel comfortable having my intention/opinion questioned. I'm as "blue" as they come; union, democrat, and a heart that actually pumps blood.


I told my psychiatrist: "everyone hates me". He said I was being ridiculous..."everyone hasn't met you yet" - Rodney D.
by bullshipper on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 06:43:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Correction to the "Pierce" Connection (none / 0)

Not "Mildred";
I prolly got confuzzled in my fuzzy presidential histrionics and Rodney Dangerfield-ed "Millard Fillmore" and "Franklin Pierce" mussing up of America, soz.

*Jane Means Appleton Pierce

The "nepotism" label still applies, tho.


I told my psychiatrist: "everyone hates me". He said I was being ridiculous..."everyone hasn't met you yet" - Rodney D.
by bullshipper on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:25:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Correction to the "Pierce" (none / 0)

Dude!  Get some rest.  You're sounding tired.


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 11:19:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (none / 0)

"I just don't feel comfortable having my intention/opinion questioned"

Yes, you're definitely not in the right place, lol!


by ReillyDiefenbach on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 12:01:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (none / 0)

No offense man but saying you don't want your opinions questioned is not exactly the level of discourse we need around here; or in this country for that matter. You might have noticed that for the last eight years we have lived under an administration that does not like to have its opinions or intentions questioned.


ENOUGH!
by JDF on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 01:55:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (none / 0)

Very true.

Anybody here is welcome to challenge my opinion.  In fact, I'd love it if some other alumni showed up to comment, and discuss this topic.

Like I said, this opinion is probably not universal among my peers, but neither is it rare.

Just for full disclosure:  I worked on John's 2000 primary campaign, and also voted for him as Senator in 2004.

This is NOT the John that I worked for, 8 years ago.


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 02:13:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (none / 0)

I've been fair and kind and realistic for all of my life. The new-found "outrage" espoused here; has only gone to sadden me further.
I shall not compare my family's hard work against anyone's self-important blog.
I really do think my time could be better served working for a solution; rather than plant my ass here, and decide who's opinion matters.
We've worked hard; and, resent that the republicans have sent any semblance of a job they give their kids, remain here.
Same goes for anyone spouting off or (still) questioning my motives.
I'm only asking for the "unsubscribe" link, because I want it off of my computer.
We All Win, if...the Republicans lose. Just vote.
I told my psychiatrist: "everyone hates me". He said I was being ridiculous..."everyone hasn't met you yet" - Rodney D.
by bullshipper on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 12:43:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (none / 0)

please excuse my awkwardness in expressing my feelings about what the republicans have done to destroy the fabric of this country.

As McCan't says: "These jobs are never coming back." Thanks for the uplifting message that asinine assessment gives working families, John.


I told my psychiatrist: "everyone hates me". He said I was being ridiculous..."everyone hasn't met you yet" - Rodney D.
by bullshipper on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 01:27:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 6)

Ooohrah, skipper. Guess things like this don't matter to the Republicans, though, unfortunately... unless it happens to a Democrat.


Serious question- Is This Snark?
by ragekage on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 02:02:32 AM EST

Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 5)

Hey Rage!

Well, you know that the Repubes are all for looking at military service performance, except in special cases where they try to ignore it completely.

This kind of story really tends to piss them off.  They really don't like it when people with military experience contradict their personal fantasies.


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 02:08:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 3)

BTW, can I give you a ring tomorrow?


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 02:20:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Great diary...Very interesting anecdote..Rec-ed.. (2.00 / 3)

But Wow! A ring for rage from Anti-Stipes! Wow...;)


by louisprandtl on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 03:40:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Great diary...Very interesting anecdote.. (2.00 / 1)

It's a Navy thing Louis.  

Ya' know, like the Village People song?

;-)


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 10:44:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

yeah..I know some of those flying Naval (2.00 / 1)

SeaHawks folks..pretty interesting fellas...


by louisprandtl on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 04:41:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: yeah..I know some of those flying Naval (2.00 / 1)

Well, underneath, all successful aviators are pretty careful folk.  The exterior can hide the truth.  

There not as much room for error, as you might think.


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 04:58:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Can you even graduate at the bottom 1%? (2.00 / 3)

When you calculate this, it actually turns out to be 0.55%. I wasnt aware you could graduate, ranking that low.

Anyhow, Palin took 6 years to get ONE undergraduate degree at mediocre 4th tier colleges, for a degree in journalism. She wont release her grades. She's never so much as uttered a word on foreign policy or the federal budget. She's only been interviewed by People magazine so far, and her answer to whether she was ready to be president on day one, she uttered "yup, yup!". How unpresidential... But then again, this country elected Bush twice.

We now have TWO imbeciles on one GOP ticket. At least Cheney was smart. Evil, but smart.


by iamold on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 03:50:50 AM EST

Not trying to defend her but.... (2.00 / 1)

woah woah. as an attendee of a mediocre 4th tier college, quite frankly im offended! [haha. no im not. to be honest I dont know how my school ranks] but I dont think its a requirement for a presidential candidate to come from an ivy league school or anything. an education is an education. and it bothers me how people try to say an education from UT is less than one from Harvard, or things to that affect. [obviously Bush broke the myth that smart people come from Yale.]

as to why it took her 6 years, maybe she just sucks at learning in general. it happens.


by alyssa chaos on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 04:16:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not a model student ? (2.00 / 2)

It doesn't help when you attend 5 different colleges in 6 years:

She began college at Hawaii Pacific University, a private, nonsectarian school in Honolulu. She attended only as a freshman during the fall of 1982, school spokeswoman Crystale Lopez said.

Then known as Sarah Louise Heath, she was in the business administration program as a full-time student, Lopez said.

From Hawaii Pacific, Palin transferred to North Idaho College, a two-year school in Coeur d'Alene, about 30 miles east of Spokane. She attended the college as a general studies major for two semesters, in spring 1983 and fall 1983, spokeswoman Stacy Hudson said.

From North Idaho College, Palin transferred 70 miles south to the University of Idaho, the state's flagship institution. She majored in journalism with an emphasis in broadcast news. She attended Idaho, whose mascot is the Vandals, from fall 1984 to spring 1985.

She then returned to Alaska to attend Matanuska-Susitna College in Palmer in fall 1985.

Then she returned to Idaho, for spring 1986, fall 1986 and spring 1987, when she graduated. Despite her journalism degree, she does not appear to have worked for the college newspaper or campus television station, school officials said. She worked briefly as a sportscaster for KTUU in Anchorage after she graduated college.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/200 8/09/04/vp-hopeful-palin-attended-5-coll eges-in-6-years/


"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:34:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a model student ? (2.00 / 1)

Don't just focus solely on the academic GPA.

John screwed up all the areas of performance, including the military science classes and the personal professionalism.

Remember, my friend had a lower academic GPA than I did, but a higher class rank.  It isn't all about the academics:  He was also a very poor midshipman.  That means that he screwed up the military stuff as well.


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 10:54:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not a defense of 894 but... (none / 0)

He seems to have proven himself as a leader during his adult life. Also he was leader of the a group of  students (cadets?) the all got into trouble together.

The importance of this is President IS a leadership position.

GPA, there are a lot of smart people who 'screw around' in school and don't make grades for various usually immature reasons.

I would also say Obama shows those same leadership abilities.


by del on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 02:33:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a defense of 894 but... (none / 0)

He seems to have proven himself as a leader during his adult life. Also he was leader of the a group of  students (cadets?) the all got into trouble together.

Let's examine this idea, for a second:

John got caught, a lot...so we know that he was bad at getting away with his mischief. That would mean that he's not the planning type...that it's more of an impulsive act.

Now my goal, when I broke the rules, was to NOT get caught, so maybe that's where John and I differed in our philosophies.

And the other boneheads who kept following him?

And kept following him?

What does that say about their decision making?

Listen, you can make all the assertions that you want, but I don't think that you've even remotely countered any of the points of my diary.  


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 02:45:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a defense of 894 but... (none / 0)

You know my comment was pretty much on he led others and still does.

Yes the were boneheads in school, and apparently still until he sat in cell and matured. It sounds stupid but it seems he came out of the more serious about life.

Maybe he did get caught in school, maybe he did so many things that his percent of getting caught was the same as yours. We don't know. I am also not sure if he continued to get caught going over the wall, we don't know (as far as I know) or if it was every other thing he could think of. There has been open admission of resentment of having to go the navel academy of his part. Strange as that sounds.

The point is he IS a leader. He has also led in congress.


by del on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 02:55:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a defense of 894 but... (none / 0)

Okay, if your ONLY criteria is that he's a leader of some sort...well then fine.  You've obviously found the candidate for you, and I congratulate you on your decision.  

I tend to have higher standards, however...

To each his own.


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 03:01:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a defense of 894 but... (none / 0)

I did NOT say my only criteria is leadership anywhere in either of my posts.

I did say is is very important.
I did say it looks like he screwed around on academics.
I did say I didn't know anything on the military aspect of it.

I though I mad clear that I also thought he had an experience that matured him.

I also said Obama has similar leadership qualities!

You know, if you can't lead you get pushed by others. Example: Cheney, Old entrenched interests in washington, Old entrenched congress. Clinton got pushed at first until he figured out how to lead, including Republicans. Go further back and you can find many examples of good or bad leaders in the Presidency. BOTH parties, Reagan was a good leader. Carter not so much, Ford?, Nixon bad person good leader. Even look at Harry Reid, he hasn't been able to lead well enough to break the threats of Republicans unfortunately for us.

If you don't have a good leader you sit and spin the wheels and nothing gets done.


by del on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 03:11:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not a defense of 894 but... (none / 0)

If you don't have a good leader you sit and spin the wheels and nothing gets done.

There you go.  I agree.

John is not a good leader, based on the character traits that I just outlined.  What is interesting, is that these characteristics were evident back at the Academy.  

That's really the point of this diary.

You can see, 50 years ago, traits starting to develop that dominate his personality now.

I would be very unhappy if he became my boss.  

Very risky, usually means very dead.


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 03:25:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It means something... (2.00 / 1)

Who would you rather have as your surgeon, one who graduated from Kazikhstan U. or Harvard Med?

I know, I know, how the old saying goes:  What do you call the person who graduated at the bottom of his class in medical school.

Doctor.

Still, I think that what it really shows is that intellectual curiosity and desire for higher education was not one of her priorities, and dammit! I sure as shit want someone smarter than me running this country.

It might not seem fair, but we don't have much objective information to assess their qualifications.  At the VERY least it demonstrates the following:

1. She did not have an academic scholarship

  1. She was not committed enough to her education to finish a degree in one shot (haven't heard of financial difficulties preventing this)
  2. She didn't do enough research about Hawaii's weather before enrolling. (She hates a rainy day)

I'm not judging her priorities at all, however, MY priorities are that the VP have more than a degree in journalism.


I might be crazy... but are you seeing what I'm seeing?
by mydailydrunk on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 06:39:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Republican Math (none / 0)

Evil = Smart?
Nope; does not compute how Jr. Bush got elected in the 1st parameter of the 3rd degree of the 4th amendment on his 2nd try

Cheney = Smart?
No; Entitled, Yes

Evil = Cheney, Nah
Give the kid a break; he learned how to hit his target. John couldn't hit his, just the opposite...


I told my psychiatrist: "everyone hates me". He said I was being ridiculous..."everyone hasn't met you yet" - Rodney D.
by bullshipper on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:41:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can you even graduate at the bottom 1%? (2.00 / 1)

The cirriculum at Idaho is a joke.  I'm not knocking anyones grades, but I think I'd take a "C" from Syracuse over an "A++++++"smiley face from Idaho (or is that Idontknow State).

Besides, graduating from a known 'dropout factory' such as Wasilla H.S. just doesn't hold that much weight in my book.


I might be crazy... but are you seeing what I'm seeing?
by mydailydrunk on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 03:09:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can you even graduate at the bottom 1%? (none / 0)

That's a bit harsh.

I'm not speaking for Spudaho; but, our western state (Montana) has more Rhode's scholars per capita/student pop. than most skools, whatever League you choose. I'm sure Yale is real proud of the ninny we currently have running this country into the ground. Kinda' like what J. Sid did to his toy jet.
I'll not say anything about Syracuse's prowess on the footyball, either. They're all nothing, if not incompetent ('pubes, g.jr., john mccrash, syracuse athletics, et alia).


I told my psychiatrist: "everyone hates me". He said I was being ridiculous..."everyone hasn't met you yet" - Rodney D.
by bullshipper on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 01:43:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 2)

Wow!  This wasn't the part I was interested in but thanks (meant sincerely, please don't read as snark).  I knew he must have been pretty close to washing out, but now I wonder how much the legacy thing made him bulletproof at the academy.

Still interested in his medical record after returning though.  I won't speculate publicly on what I think is in the 1200 pages but I have suspicions.


Visiting the hopium dens proudly since 2007.
by AZphilosopher on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 04:20:58 AM EST

Re: 894 out of 899 (none / 0)

You're welcome.

;-)

The idea for this diary came to me when I stumbled over my old transcript last night.  That led me to look for John's transcript on-line, only to discover that it doesn't exist in the public domain.

Since we'll never know John's grades, I thought that I would add a little color to what John managed to do will hanging out on the Severn river for four years.

I glad that you found it worthwhile.

Cheers!


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 11:00:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 4)

Evidently, Fred Thompson thought this poor record was something to brag about:

Now, John's father was a bit of a rebel, too.

In his first two semesters at the Naval Academy, he managed to earn 333 demerits.

Unfortunately, John later saw that as a record to be beaten.

A rebellious mother and a rebellious father - I guess you can see where this is going. In high school and the Naval Academy, he earned a reputation as a troublemaker.

But as John points out, he wasn't just a troublemaker. He was the leader of the troublemakers.

Hicktown Press

Wow, a "leader of troublemakers"?
That's not the kind of change we need in the White House.


"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:44:43 AM EST

Re: 894 out of 899 (none / 0)

Yeah, well Fred is pretty dense.  Even Nixon commented on that fact.

This is all Hollywood folks.  They are presenting the "World According to John" to the American public, and quite a bit of it is fiction.

Now, my opinion of John may not be universal amongst my fellow alumni.  But remember this: the Republicans do not own the military!


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 11:07:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 1)

What, you are immune to the "Fredrenaline"?

What bothers me the most, I think, is that McCain pissed on the opportunity of the Academy that thousands and thousands of applicants were denied.  What kind of honor is that?

Youthful indiscretion?  Bah!  I know plenty of kids who would have been more respectful and appreciative of the chance to prove that they were deserving of the position at such an elite institution.  Even if their father and grandfather were admirals.  His behavior, especially in light of his legacy is disgraceful.

Way to go "Crash" McCain.  Screw him.

Oh yeah, what about "Pogo" as another American philosopher?


I might be crazy... but are you seeing what I'm seeing?
by mydailydrunk on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 02:58:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (none / 0)

What bothers me the most, I think, is that McCain pissed on the opportunity of the Academy that thousands and thousands of applicants were denied.  What kind of honor is that?

Bingo!  I worked my ass off to get into the Academy.  Many others worked even much harder than me.

In my incoming year, there were 80,000 applications for about 1400 slots.

John got to jump to the front of the line, and he didn't even seem to value the gift that was given to him.

Do I resent that?  Yes, I do in some ways.


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 03:05:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 2)

So could you clarify for me this:  Say you're kind of a, well, let's just say, a dumbass at the academy, but you're an upright guy who's really trying and walking the straight and narrow, you're not going to be the 'anchor'.

And, if you are a total tool who's only there for himself, and invents a new theorm of hydrodynamics, you're still not going to be at the top.

Just wondering what kind of 'hand's off' policy he got?  And how did get then get into flight school with that kind of attitude and class rank, even as an Admiral's kid.

What a jackoff.  I'm just not seeing this paragon of honor in anything he's done, merely self-preservation and loyalty to the POW code.  Which most likely would not even be an issue if he had FOLLOWED ORDERS in the first place.

Wow, what stellar leadership skills demonstrated.  This was a strategic strike mission, not like some A-10 or Cobra pilot getting their boots in the mud for a ground support mission.

Thanks for all the destroyed equipment 'Crash'.


I might be crazy... but are you seeing what I'm seeing?
by mydailydrunk on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 03:31:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 1)

Actually, he was an A-4 pilot, so I do give him credit for that.

Ground attack ain't beanbag, but he sure seemed to have a long and steep learning curve.  Trashing airframes would not even be remotely tolerated, in this day and age.

Follow this link, for a perspective from one of John's fellow POWs:

http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202, 164859_1,00.html.dk


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 03:40:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 1)

Thank you for the link, a truly sobering account.  

I'm sorry about the tone of my previous post, I didn't mean to sound flippant or belittle any of his experiences in any manner, and I ask forgiveness from those I might have offended.


I might be crazy... but are you seeing what I'm seeing?
by mydailydrunk on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 03:59:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (none / 0)

Personally, I wasn't offended by your comments, so no need to apologize to me.

That article that I linked for you is important.

It shows that there are some of us who can speak directly, and with context around John's experiences.

We must not shy away from this.

We are putting the pieces together, and it's building a narrative about John.  It's very important that people understand that McCain's recklessness is part of who he is.

He has not "outgrown" it.


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 04:11:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 2)

I just can't understand why we condemn academic success and celebrate mediocrity (and worse) in our leaders. Obama was on the Harvard Law Review, and he is seen as elite and out of touch. McSame barely graduated from the Naval Academy (as a legacy) and he is seen as a rebel and a maverick. We get the government we deserve.


by blue jersey mom on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:56:04 AM EST

Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 2)

Personally, I am fed up with the anti-intellectualism that the Republicans have foisted upon us.

They have made being stupid a badge of honor.

They have convinced a whole generation of lower middle class folks that being "uneducated" allows them to think more clearly, to make better decisions, uncluttered by knowledge.

How the hell did this happen?


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 11:11:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

There has always been (2.00 / 1)

a strong strain of anti intellectualism in this country.  Name one one philosopher who comes from this country.  Bzzzzzzz, time's up!  A.M. radio, paid for by right wing billionaires pretty much finished the job for good and all, and now we have a brain damaged republican candidate running on the amnesia platform who wouldn't get past a primary in any other industrialized country and his pet pit bull bitch running for the two most powerful positions in the world.  
Nice going, America!

I think Obama will win, but Jesus H. Christ the stupid is so thick in this benighted country.  If it wasn't for the fucking South and their millions upon millions of snake handling inch and a quarter brows, we'd have good government, but no, there they go, trying their best to drag us down to wreck and ruin once again, sucking our tax dollars and giving nothing back other than George Bush and Boss Hogg.  


by ReillyDiefenbach on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 12:18:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There has always been (none / 0)

Henry David Thoreau?

He's one of my favorites.

Listen, I'm not going to paint with such a broad brush.  This recent anti-intellectualism does not mean that we've been a nation of idiots for 200 years.

It means that we've recently lost our way...education should be valued, not ridiculed.

I'm not the sharpest arrow in Robin's quiver, but neither am I the dullest.

I reject the Republicans attempt to manipulate us.  I will go out on a limb here and say:  More education is better...that's why it should be accessible to everyone who wants to go.


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 01:47:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There has always been (2.00 / 1)

Jefferson, Thoreau, Chomsky, Holmes, possibly Franklin.

That most people can't name a single is indicative of the generally crap level of what is considered 'education' in this country.


I might be crazy... but are you seeing what I'm seeing?
by mydailydrunk on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 02:24:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There has always been (2.00 / 1)

mydailydrunk, nice handle, lol!

looks like you noticed, too.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 05:18:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There has always been (none / 0)

American Philosophers:

Dewey
Quine
Kuhn
Rawls
Nozick

None of these guys were anti-intellectual though Quine was apparently quite the Republican (as was Nozick).  I'd still rather my students read Nozick on politics than listen to Gov. Palin.

The point is there is American thought.  It just gets shouted down by Republicans in all their anti-intellectual glory.  It is just a racket so the pitchfork brigade doesn't ask the country club folks what they did with all the jobs.


Visiting the hopium dens proudly since 2007.
by AZphilosopher on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 01:12:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 4)

Sadly, his weak academic record is viewed as a feature, not a bug. This is a nation who wants someone "just like them" to be president--it's election-as-reality-show, not a contest to select the best and brightest among us.

So instead of rightly cringing at McCain's lack of brilliance and academic accomplishment, it's celebrated as honest-to-gosh proof of his "normalcy." Why, John McCain's no egghead! He's a regular guy, salt of the earth!

Palin makes this point exponentially. Now you've got the academically unremarkable McCain and the completely unknown, completely average "mom next door" as his VP, yet people are delighted, not horrified.

Despite all the serious-sounding lip service people pay to the requirements of the presidency, and the mental acuity it requires, people are really full of crap. They want to believe that THEY can be president, so they buy into attacks on education and intelligence and tell themselves that you don't need to be smart to be president. Smart people are the enemy; vote for the guy with whom you'd rather have a beer.

Welcome to America, the idiocracy.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 10:36:45 AM EST

Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 2)

oh, and can someone PLEASE explain this "redacted" business? Is this an in-joke, or are the site admins actually censoring a site's name?


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 10:40:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 1)

I am not authorized to release an answer to your question at this time.

You will, however, know soon.

;-)

Cheers!


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 11:17:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (2.00 / 1)

They want to believe that THEY can be president, so they buy into attacks on education and intelligence and tell themselves that you don't need to be smart to be president.

JGFC,

Ah...you've put in words what I think is the real reason for this phenomenon.  Everyone wants to believe that it could be them.

Look!  Sarah is a perfect example.  It's like she won the VP lottery.


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 11:15:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (none / 0)

A nation of Frito Pendejos for sure.  
Hunh??
Whaaa?  
Huuuff!!

And then we have our wonderful media:

Female Reporter: It started off boring and slow with Not Sure trying to bullshit everyone with a bunch of smart talk: 'Blah blah blah. You gotta believe me!' That part of the trial sucked! But then the Chief J. just went off. He said, 'Man, whatever! The guy's guilty as shit! We all know that.' And he sentenced his ass to one night of rehabilitation.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 05:34:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Question regarding rank calculation (2.00 / 1)

Can you explain in greater detail how rank as a composite of the three factors academics, leadership, professional performance is calculated?    My cursory Google research produced little that explains how the composite is calculated, other than to reiterate the three factors and in a few cases conflicting information about those factors.

1. Are are the three factors weighted equally?  More to the point, were the weighted equally in 1958?

2. Is it possible to receive negative values for any of these factors or is zero the lowest possible score?  For instance, is it possible to receive negative ratings for leadership?  I ask for the following reason: simplifying, imagine one receives a "score" of 3 for use in ranking.  Must that be 1+1+1 or could it be 90+90+(-177)?

3. Are demerits assigned with equal value?  That is, does jumping the wall = 1 demerit and tardiness = 1 demerit, or does the number of demerits (or their value) vary according to some severity scale?

Thanks.


"We live entangled in webs of endless deceit, often self-deceit, but with a little honest effort, it is possible to extricate ourselves from them". -- NC
by Trond Jacobsen on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 11:45:40 AM EST

Re: Question regarding rank calculation (2.00 / 1)

Well, you asked some very detailed questions, so let me address what I can:

1. Are are the three factors weighted equally?  More to the point, were the weighted equally in 1958?

As I stated in my diary, academic performance accounted for about 60% - 70% of the class rank weighting when I was there, so no, they are not equal.  As to what was going on in 1958, it was fairly similar, although I can't speak to the weighting.

2. Is it possible to receive negative values for any of these factors or is zero the lowest possible score?  For instance, is it possible to receive negative ratings for leadership?  I ask for the following reason: simplifying, imagine one receives a "score" of 3 for use in ranking.  Must that be 1+1+1 or could it be 90+90+(-177)?

It does not work that way.  All the grading was on the positive end of the scale.  Besides, it was all relative to everyone else, so it doesn't matter where the reference point is.

3. Are demerits assigned with equal value?  That is, does jumping the wall = 1 demerit and tardiness = 1 demerit, or does the number of demerits (or their value) vary according to some severity scale?

All demerits are equal.  The level of the infraction dictates how many demerits are dispensed for the offense.

When I jumped the wall, I think I got 30 days restriction, and about 60 demerits.  That was considered about right for a first offense.


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 11:57:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Question regarding rank calculation (2.00 / 1)

BTW, Jumping the wall is a serious level offense.

Being late to formation by 2 mins, or something like that, may yield a warning, or something like 5 demerits.  That's a small level offense.  It's up to the company officer, really.

I can't remember the category levels at the moment, but something like that would be the lowest level category.


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 01:56:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (Updated x2) (2.00 / 1)

Just a perspective regarding USNA graduates in the early 1970s

Antistipes experience and the class ranking methodolody has not changed one iota.

One of my collegaues (a lawyer and a 1972 grad) told me succinctly:  "There is a reason why those in the bottom fifth graduate, its the same reason dumb-fu*k nephews become corporate VPs."

Just an aside, while the Anchorman might seem like a cool prize, remember no one in the bottom third ever sees real command, coveted assignments or any responsibility whatsoever.  These guys are ground out of the Navy pretty quickly.

Of course sometimes, a guy becomes a pilot and crashes 5 planes costing the Navy more than  $120 milion in taxpayer money.


by kmwray on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 05:43:45 PM EST

Re: 894 out of 899 (Updated x2) (none / 0)

Antistipes experience and the class ranking methodolody has not changed one iota.

Well, they may occasionally change some of the names, and some of the metrics, but I'd be surprised if it were substantially different, even now.

Thanks for taking the time to chime in.  I really appreciate it.

Remember, we "own" the military also, just like every other citizen of the United States of America.


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 05:52:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 894 out of 899 (Updated-x2) (none / 0)

BTW,

This diary is not meant to address anything other than John's time at the Academy, since this is where I have direct experience.

We all need to understand the evolution of John McCain, so we can identify his weak spots.  Ironically, I consider parts of his military career as very vulnerable.  

This is why the Republicans want us to stay away from digging into this deeply.  They're as afraid of what they'll find in McCain's service jacket, as we are curious to see it.

This is why McCain won't release his full military record.  We'd get the full truth, and not some sanitized version of it.  They're afraid, and they'll go nuclear on anyone who even opens up this line of questioning.

Cheers!


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 07:46:58 PM EST

Thanks for the perspective and insight (2.00 / 1)

Graduating near the bottom of any class is nothing to brag about but when some of the criterion for that bottom feeding ranking is related to leadership it is even more important.

As for voting for him in 2000, as Biden says the John McCain of 2000 wouldn't vote for the John McCain of 2008.


by Jenai on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:11:22 PM EST

Re: Thanks for the perspective and insight (none / 0)

Actually, I'm not ashamed to have worked for him in 2000, or for voting for him in 2004.

I was proud of the fact that he called Jerry Falwell an "agent of intolerance."  I started to see a rejuvenation of the Arizona tradition of a Goldwater philosophy.  

I grew up in Arizona.  

My dad was born in Arizona, only 20 years after it became a state.  This is my political reference point.

I don't regret it at all.  It has allowed me to see him more clearly.

We share much in common, and don't think that I don't have misgivings about posting this diary.  I've been a member of MyDD for sometime, (under various usernames, since I've been banned a few of times).  

It's taken a lot, to put this out there.  To some degree, I feel disloyal.

This time, it's too important not to speak out.


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:24:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I was a registered Republican until 8 years ago (2.00 / 1)

Even after I couldn't be a republican because it had moved so far away from my beliefs.  And I mean that it moved away.  I may have grown some too but they weren't the same.

It is only this year....actually this past month that I can say I am a Democrat.  It really happened with the selection of Palin.

I didn't mean to demean your support for McCain in 2000.  I am glad you are not supporting him now though.


by Jenai on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:36:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was a registered Republican (2.00 / 1)

You never demeaned my support, or at least I never took it that way.  

No worries.

I was there well before Palin, but this is the first time that I've taken a really deep shot at McCain.  I have two other diaries already planned out.

This will be my theme for the next few days.

Cheers, and thanks for joining the team!


by AntiStipes on Sun Sep 07, 2008 at 09:43:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am looking forward to your new diaries n/t (none / 0)


by Jenai on Mon Sep 08, 2008 at 12:47:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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